THE CROSS-EXAMINATION BETWEEN SHANDON GUTHRIE, QUADAR AL RAHEEM, AND RAHEEM ALI MUHAMMAD
Jamey Cannedy: Okay. The first thing I would like to get to is (we were talking a little bit off the air) the Bible about Christianity. And you had something to say about that, Raheem?
Muhammad: Yeah. You were talking about when he became a Christian and I wanted to find out what prophets, what apostles, or messenger of God came and preached the word of God of Christianity because from my understanding of the Bible in Chapter 11 of Acts beginning in 25, no, 26 it reads, "Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul: And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch." And this is the first time it mentions anything about them being Christians on the account of Jesus. Okay? And this is what I wanted to get you to respond to.
Guthrie: Sure. You want to know my response to that?
Muhammad: Yes, sir.
Guthrie: Why no prophet or apostle revealed it directly to me, is that what you are asking?
Muhammad: Well, I'm talking about in the Bible. Where does it says anything in the Bible about becoming Christians or Christianity up to this point in Acts?
Guthrie: Well, as you just pointed out, in Acts 11:26 it says that they were first called Christians in Antioch. So, if there is a first, there is obviously a second and even a third. But what I would say is that Jesus gives us the authority to become the adopted sons of God in John 1:12. So, our authority comes directly from Jesus because he is the "priest" for us in our place according to Hebrews chapters 7 through 10. So, our authority comes from the word of God. I have a question. Where do you get your authority?
Muhammad: Uh, I get my authority strictly from Allah.
Guthrie: From Allah?
Muhammad: Exactly.
Guthrie: And how is that . . .through the Qur'an?
Muhammad: Through the Qur'an. That is the word of Allah.
Guthrie: Well, then I certainly can get my revelation through the Bible, can I not, if you can get it through the Qur'an?
Muhammad: You certainly can. But, now, I want to ask you a question.
Guthrie: Sure.
Muhammad: If you have any history of the Bible being tampered with (when you have that fact that it has been tampered with), the Bible can no longer be Holy.
Guthrie: I agree that if the Bible has been tampered with in data then I can agree with you on that point. I think you even quoted something like 50,000 errors?
Muhammad: Yes, sir.
Guthrie: First of all, the burden of proof is on proving that there are errors. So maybe we can cover a couple of these quickly. We certainly couldn't sit here all night and talk about all 50,000, it would certainly be a long show. But in the same token, I also believe that the Qur'an itself contains some contradictions.
Muhammad: No. It contains none. And we have scholars (Muslim scholars and Christian scholars) and they believe that the Qur'an is still in its purist form and they came up with the fact that the Bible has been tampered with. I got my information from the Muslim-Christian dialogue.(1) They found no errors in the Qur'an but they have found errors in the Bible.
Guthrie: Can you show me just-
Muhammad: We take the Bible as Muslims and still use the Bible (the pureness that is still left in the Bible).
Guthrie: But I noticed that the Qur'an quotes from it extensively.
Muhammad: Like I said, we can use the Bible with the pureness that's in it. Okay. I read a book called The Baha'i Faith. It says that any man who is searching diligently for the truth in the Bible, if he takes off the worldly clothes (and we're not talking about physical clothes), and comes into it "naked," you can distinguish the truth from all the falsehood that is tangled around the truth. So, when we read the Qur'an, we can go back into the Bible and decipher the truth that's in the Bible by Allah who gives to the one who searches diligently. But, if we go to John 8 . . . Go to John 8.
Guthrie: John Chapter 8.
Muhammad: The same John -
Guthrie: What are we looking at here? What are we trying to bring forth?
Muhammad: Okay. In John 8:44, where Jesus is talking to certain people, I am talking to you that which my father has taught me, but you can't understand me because you can only understand what your father taught you. So, we have two different individuals teaching people. You see where I'm coming from?
Guthrie: So, you're talking about . . . you're also bringing in the devil, correct? The doctrines of the devil?
Muhammad: Yeah.
Guthrie: And do you know how you decipher between the doctrines of the devil versus the doctrines of God?
Muhammad: I know how to decipher them because I've listened to the prophet Jesus bring it down to me. You see what I'm saying?
Guthrie: Okay. So you accept the words of Jesus?
Muhammad: Without a doubt.
Guthrie: Great. I'm glad to hear that. So you do, pretty much, accept the message of the gospel as put forth by the prophet Jesus, correct?
Muhammad: Yes.
Guthrie: Good. I'm glad to hear that. Why wouldn't you believe, for example, Paul the Apostle who was one of the greatest theologians. Would you believe him who personally witnessed the resurrection of Christ?
Muhammad: No. We don't accept Paul the Apostle.
Guthrie: I mean Paul as an author. He personally witnessed the resurrection of Christ as an apostle of God.
Muhammad: We don't accept Paul. Paul is a self-appointed apostle (he is the thirteenth appointed apostle) and Paul said in Romans that he came only to the Romans.
Guthrie: Well, if you don't accept him, then I'm kind of baffled as to why you would quote him.
Muhammad: I'm not quoting Paul.
Guthrie: Romans was written by Paul.
Muhammad: Uh-huh. I hadn't [sic] went to Romans yet.
Guthrie: Oh, you didn't? I thought you just quoted from Romans?(2)
Muhammad: No. I quoted from Acts and I quoted from John.
Guthrie: Do you accept the words of Luke?
Muhammad: No I don't.
Guthrie: Because Acts was written by Luke.
Muhammad: Luke actually got his faith from where Mark received his faith.
Guthrie: The reason I'm asking you is because I understand, I mean, you quote the Bible extensively to try to demonstrate your point and then you turn around and say that the same books you are quoting are faulty, that the people that wrote them are not reputable.
Muhammad: Okay. I think what you are doing is taking what I am saying out of context. What I said is that we believe in certain parts of truthfulness in the Bible.
Guthrie: Okay.
Muhammad: Now, Luke and Mark had received hearsay. Now, some of their hearsay is correct. Luke may have also wrote Acts (I didn't know that until you just said that), but anything after Jesus really has no foundation. The only one who really wrote Jesus' life, or the account of Jesus' life, was Barnabas. And they failed to mention that in the Bible.
Guthrie: Barnabas?
Muhammad: That's right.
Guthrie: You are talking about the supposed lost gospel of Barnabas?
Muhammad: That's right.
Guthrie: I reject it. The reason why is because orthodox Jews do not accept that as part of the canon of Scripture. There are errors in the supposed Gospel of Barnabas. But I also want to bring out what Jesus said in Matthew chapter 24 starting in verse 35 he says, "Heaven and earth will pass away but my words shall not pass away." How do you answer a text like that which seems to dictate that Jesus words will not pass away in any way, shape, or form?
Muhammad: Okay. Jesus' words came from the Father. So, Allah's words would pass away but Jesus words would never pass away. See, Jesus tells you constantly in the Bible that he can do nothing of himself but what the Father tells him what to do.(3)
Guthrie: Do you know why he said that?
Muhammad: He said . . . just a second, let me find that . . . "If I honor myself, my Father's nothing. It is my Father that honors me before whom ye say that he is your God." You see what I'm saying?(4)
Guthrie: And in John chapter 10, Jesus says that you are to "honor the Son just as you are to honor the Father."(5) And in everything that you are going to honor Allah, you have to honor the Son as well.
Muhammad: Okay. We are the prophet Muhammad, we are the Jesus, we are the Moses, we are the Abraham. But we recognize all of them as prophets. We do not give praises to either one of them because our praises are due to Allah.
Guthrie: But did you know that in one of the Chapters you just quoted, and these are Jesus' own words, I believe in John chapter 8, you quoted verse, what, verse 54?
Muhammad: Yes.
Guthrie: That God cannot do anything except by his Father? If you look at verse 58, he makes an absolute claim to deity. He claims himself to be God in human form; he says, "Before Abraham was, I am." He uses the Greek ego eime and quotes the Old Testament in Exodus 3:14, where God is speaking, where it says, "I am that I am." And Jesus quotes that and applies it to himself.
Muhammad: Okay. Now, and I think where you are getting this is in Exodus 3:14 in the books of Moses?
Guthrie: The books of Moses, right.
Muhammad: Exodus 3:14?
Guthrie: That's where I am going to. Jesus is quoting the Old Testament and claiming absolute deity. How do you respond to that?
Muhammad: Okay. Now, at first he was saying that he was before Abraham was. I remember reading somewhere in Romans where Allah said that Jesus was to be manifested in a day, but in the Spirit of God we were created in God. We talked with one another but we were only put on this earth on a certain time just like Adam had to come first, then Abraham had to come second; they just didn't come all at once.
Guthrie: But how do you explain Jesus existing before Abraham and claiming to be the "I am" (the same "I am" in Exodus 3)?
Muhammad: He existed in the Father with Abraham.
Guthrie: How did he exist in the Father-
Muhammad: In the Spirit.
Guthrie: In the Spirit? Even though Jesus is claiming to be the "I am" (to be the "I am") in Exodus 3:14, you are somehow making an abstract difference that's not in the Bible.
Muhammad: [To himself] Exodus 3:14 . . . let me read that, "And God said unto Moses, 'I am that I am.'" That's God.
Guthrie: Exactly! And Jesus quotes that in John 8:58 when he says, "Before Abraham was, I am."
Muhammad: Okay. Don't sometimes you quote your father?
Guthrie: Yes, but I don't claim to be of the same substance.
Muhammad: No, but what I'm saying is that sometimes don't you quote what your biological father says to you? Or you may mimic something your biological father said to you?
Guthrie: Yes.
Muhammad: Okay. When Jesus was left with the knowledge of who he was, you see what I'm saying, he is letting you know, "I'm saying the things my father has said. I don't talk the things of this world."
Guthrie: You would quote your father and apply it to yourself saying, "I am the same substance as my father"?
Muhammad: If he was left with the knowledge of himself, why shouldn't he? He was left with the knowledge of himself. And if we go to Isaiah, when he was prophesying about Jesus coming about, he said before the child he was known to his [unintelligible] to refuse evil. So what he's saying is that he was left with the knowledge of himself.
Jamey Cannedy: Raheem?
Muhammad: Yeah.
Jamey Cannedy: We have to go to a break here and we will be back in just a few moments.
[2 minute break]
Jamey Cannedy: Okay. We're back on the air with Raheem and Shandon and we are going to continue our discussion. If anyone is out there that would like to call in with a question, the phone number is [censored] and the phone lines are open so give us a call. And we'll continue with Shandon and Raheem and go on to - I believe you guys were going to discuss some contradictions?
Guthrie: But first before we get into some biblical contradictions, I want to be sure(6) that we can arise and bring up some Qur'anic contradictions.
Muhammad: Okay.
Guthrie: I believe it's only fair and logical in testing a religion in a free society. I believe it's okay to do that.
Muhammad: Okay.
Guthrie: Okay. You were taking me to Isaiah chapter 7?
Muhammad: Yes, sir.
Guthrie: And you wanted me to look at verses 11 and following?
Muhammad: Yes.
Guthrie: What's the point you wanted to make here?
Muhammad: Okay. Right here in 15 it says, "Butter and honey should he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good." So what we're saying here is that before the child, he would know how to refuse the evil. What I'm saying is that Jesus, as a prophet, was left with the knowledge of himself and where he came from and who created him.
Guthrie: Jesus was not created. I don't believe that Jesus was created.
Muhammad: What do you mean he wasn't created?
Guthrie: Uh, according to Micah 5:2 it says, "from everlasting". That's hardly a suggestion that Jesus was created at a point in time. He came into the world upon the conception of Mary. That's when he took on his incarnate nature. But Jesus was always eternal. It even says in John 1:18 that Jesus was the one that was revealed in the Old Testament. He was the one that appeared to Abraham. Jesus was the one that appeared in the Old Testament to the Old Testament prophets.
Muhammad: So, what you're telling me is that Jesus stayed in the womb for nine months and that he was not created in the womb the way all natural men were created?
Guthrie: His body was but not his spirit.
Muhammad: Oh, and I agree with you totally.
Guthrie: Great.
Muhammad: Okay. Now, my body was also created but my spirit has always been, you see what I'm saying?
Guthrie: So you are saying that your spirit always existed, too?
Muhammad: My spirit has always before the original Man. My spirit has always existed before time began, and so was Jesus'.
Guthrie: Okay. Can you find any evidence of that in the Bible at all because I don't seem to read that when I-
Muhammad: Well, you're not going to find that in the Bible.
Guthrie: Oh, okay.
Muhammad: You are not going to find anything about Islam in the Bible.
Guthrie: Right.
Muhammad: They want to keep it out of the Bible. If you want to oppress anyone from the knowledge of self, then we would take anything about you out of the Bible.
Guthrie: I have a question about the Qur'an now. The Qur'an gives two references to what a "day" is to God. Is a day a thousand years or 50,000 years to God . . . to Allah?
Muhammad: Where are you at in the Qur'an?
Guthrie: Surah 32:5, and I have to jump to it, too. I have Daewood's version
Muhammad: [Reading] ". . . then it will ascend to him in a day, the measure which is a thousand years."
Guthrie: Okay. How much is a "day" to Allah? What does it say in the text?
Muhammad: That's something I really can't tell you.
Guthrie: Because it says right in the verse that, "he governs all from heaven to earth and all will ascend to him in a single day, a day whose space is a thousand years by your reckoning." Would you agree that the Qur'an is correct in saying that a "day" is a thousand years to God?
Muhammad: If that's what the Qur'an says.
Guthrie: Sure. But I have a question now because I have a problem in Surah 70 and if you can read for me . . . let me see . . . in verse 4?
Muhammad: Surah 70:4 . . . alright, let me get to that. "To him who sends the angels and the spirits in a day, a measure of which is fifty thousand years."
Guthrie: How many years is a "day" in this text?
Muhammad: "To him who sends the angels and the spirits in a day, a measure of which is fifty thousand years." It says "fifty thousand years."
Guthrie: Yeah. Why is there not a correlation between Surah 70 and Surah 32? It's confusing because in one passage it says that a "day" is only a thousand years and in the next one we are told that it is 50,000 years. Which one of them are we going to believe?
Muhammad: [Pause] Uh, that's a good question. Let me go back to that one you were talking about . . . 32:5?
Guthrie: Sure.
[Muhammad rereads Surah 32:5]
Muhammad: And then you went to where it says "fifty thousand years"?
Guthrie: Yes.
Muhammad: [Pause] I don't know. That's something I would have to study.
Guthrie: Yeah. I understand that it can be difficult talking about textual criticism and all we're both interested in is, I'm sure, the truth. What we want to know is which text (and the Bible is admittedly the oldest revelation out of both of these) and in textual criticism any scholar will tell you that older revelations always test newer revelations. The Bible, for example, calls for the infallibility of a prophet. A prophet needs to be 100 percent correct in what he says. To give another example in the Qur'an, it states that Abraham believed first (Surah 6:14) and when we turn around and see in Surah 7:143 it says that Moses believed first. So, I was kind of distraught at seeing all sorts of texts such as these. It seems that the Qur'an does not withstand the test of textual criticism.
Muhammad: Okay. Give me those Surahs again.
Guthrie: Sure. That was Surah 6:14 and 7:143.
Muhammad: Okay. I just wanted to jot those down so I can go and study those.
Guthrie: Oh, great. And that's important, too: studying. You know, I always admire men who are willing to go (and not just take someone's word for it) and critically study. But can I ask you this?
Muhammad: Yes.
Guthrie: What happens if these contradictions are real? And you already know that what Jesus is saying is true, and I believe that, too. Don't you think we should go back to what Jesus had said and start all over and see what message he is really conveying outside of the Qur'an? Because if we can't trust the Qur'an, if it is contradicting itself and not telling us the truth, don't we have to go to an alternate source that we both agree on and establish some foundational theology?
Muhammad: Okay, and I agree with you 100 percent. If you find any discrepancies in the Qur'an then you must study diligently in the Qur'an because it may not be in the Qur'an where the discrepancies lie within itself. It's the same way with the Bible. If there is a discrepancy in the Bible then-
Guthrie: I don't believe there are any internal biblical discrepancies. Unless you show me one, I cannot accept that there are any.
Muhammad: Yeah. And I wish I had the Muslim dialogue with me where I can actually go through that with you. I really didn't have time to prepare for your questions; but you have brought up some very good questions.
Guthrie: Sure. You have to.
Muhammad: And you have some questions that I would go over with in hope that I can get into an open dialogue with you again if it be by mail or phone or whatever.
Guthrie: Sure. Well, I'll tell you what I'll have to do. But let's go ahead and move along here and get onto something else. But just let me add that we probably would like to have you on again on a future show and perhaps we can prepare all of these before hand so that we can bring them out and discuss them in the name of open dialogue.
Muhammad: Yes.
Guthrie: Okay. Then let's get to the next question, Jamey.
Jamey Cannedy: Let's go to the person of Jesus Christ we've been talking about. It's clear that both books are opposite when it comes to Jesus Christ. Basically, though, I would like to know how you would know which one to trust to record who Jesus Christ is? And where would you come from in your answer to that question?
Muhammad: Can I take that question first?
Guthrie: Sure. Go ahead.
Muhammad: I can actually go to both books to see who Jesus is. Let's go to Acts 2.
Guthrie: Written by Luke.
Muhammad: [Laughs] Okay. But we're going to go there anyway.
Guthrie: [Laughs] You're a good sport.
Muhammad: [Laughs] Alright, I don't mind taking the hot seat. [both laugh] Acts 2:22. And it reads, "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know". When we go to the Qur'an, the Qur'an explains it's included that Jesus was a prophet and was a man who came through a woman. Now, I read, uh, quite a bit about Jesus coming into the world. Both books say something about the angel Gabriel and that he spoke through his father. Now, I have chosen Islam so whenever the scriptures are saying in the Qur'an I have to believe that wholeheartedly as a Muslim. And if I go into the Bible and just quoted to you what it said in Acts, and if a Christian believes in the Bible, he must believe in Acts 2:22.
Jamey Cannedy: Okay. Now, I'd like to go to Shandon with that question. We've only got a few minutes left so let's keep it kind of brief.
Guthrie: Let me just quickly say that there is a radical difference between the Jesus of the Bible versus the Jesus of the Qur'an. In the Qur'an, of course, Muhammad explicitly says that you are cursed if you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that it is not true according to the Qur'an. Of course in scripture, the Bible, we are told that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. So we do have two radically different conflicting views. Second of all, as mentioned before, the Qur'an explicitly denies the doctrine of the Trinity which implies that both Jesus and the Father are the same God. That is also a heretical teaching according to Islam. Again, I want to point out that the Bible does , since it is the oldest revelation, invoke discretion to anyone who is reading the Qur'an. Older revelation always tests newer revelation, and the Bible dictates explicitly that Jesus was both God and Man. He is more than just a prophet. He was resurrected, ascended bodily according to Acts 1, he is our intercessor according to 1 Timothy 2:5, and, interestingly enough (talking about the name of Allah), look in Acts 4:12. It says that there is no other name given in heaven by which Man can be saved except that of Jesus (if you read verses 9 following down through 12).
Muhammad: Shandon, would you please explain to me Chapter 2:22 in the Bible.
Guthrie: Acts chapter 2?
Muhammad: Yes, sir.
Guthrie: Let me run back there just a second. I know we are running out of time so I have to hurry. In verse 22 you said?
Muhammad: Yes.
Guthrie: ""Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know." Well, I agree that when Jesus came to earth to establish his credibility, he did perform signs and wonders and we believe that he still does that today. I've got to give the microphone to Jamey because he has to give you 30 seconds to wrap up and 30 seconds for me to wrap up.
Jamey Cannedy: Okay, Raheem. You have 30 seconds and then I'll give Shandon 30 seconds to close and maybe we can continue at a later date.
Muhammad: Well, like I said before, we are tying diligently to seek the truth after the knowledge had been left to the original man, the black man. Ever since then, we have been lacking that same knowledge until we were called to Islam. Now that we are called, we diligently, and I try not to debate with anyone, seek the experience-
Jamey Cannedy: Okay, we have to give it over to Shandon because we are just about out of time.
Guthrie: Quickly, I just want to establish the fact that Jesus is the Son of God and came in human form to die on a cross for your sins and mine, no matter who you are. Galatians 3 says that "there is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, male nor female, all are one in Christ."(7) Second of all, it has been established that there are contradictions in the Qur'an. Thirdly, no evidence has been given to support any internal biblical contradictions. And fourthly, if anyone were to establish further revelation would have the burden of proof to show that there is any such veridical revelation. And that's about all I can say.
Jamey Cannedy: Okay. I'd like to thank everyone for listening. I'd like to thank Raheem and Quadar for joining us and giving us their testimonies as well as Shandon who has done the same. It looks like we have some great material for a future show. So long, everyone.
END NOTES
1. This is a reference to a circulated tract by Muslims discussing samples of the alleged 50,000 errors of the Bible.
2. This is a direct contradiction from what Muhammad had just said a few lines earlier, "Paul said in Romans that he came only to the Romans." He apparently was referring to Romans 1:15 and then denied mentioning any citation from Romans.
3. John 5:19.
4. John 8:54.
5. This is an incorrect citation. The correct reference is John 5:23.
6. During the two minute break, Raheem Muhammad wanted to begin the last segment of the show by discussing biblical contradictions beginning in Isaiah 7.
7. Galatians 3:27.