The following is an email by a gentleman named Chad that was written to me in response to my essay, "A Discussion On Mormonism." Following this letter is a point-by-point rejoinder to those things Chad brought up that I had emailed back. As a matter of good intention, I wanted to print his letter under the auspices of fair dialogue. After all, if the very people I am trying to reach cannot voice an opinion, then what should we expect in the wake of their silence? I hope that the following exchange bolsters clarity on those issues I find biblically compromising and gives the reader an opportunity to further probe the issues Mormonism impugns.
I have spent the majority of my life in the study of the Holy Scriptures and based upon my studies, I have found a few false comments in your discussion that need to be changed. If you will study a bit more in depth, you will find that Moroni, the angel sent by God to the young Joseph Smith, was never named "Nephi". You should consider the validity of the sources from which you subtract your information. Nephi was actually an ancient Prophet whose writings are found in the Book of Mormon. Concerning polytheism, you have stated that Deut.10:17 and 1Cor. 8:5 could not possibly be taken literally when they state that there are many Gods and many Lords. Your reasoning was taken from 1 Cor. 8:6 where it states, "...but to us there is but one God" May I point out the words "but to us" which directly refer to the people here on this Earth in which we live. For us, it is true that we were created and placed here to be governed by our God. However, there is more than one world. There are many worlds, there are many universes, there are many galaxies, there is much, much more out there than we can possibly imagine. The Apostle Paul knew this long ago. He taught this principle to the Colossians and to the Hebrews. (Heb. 1:1-4, Col. 1:16) It is plain to see the principle of polytheism from the beginning of the Bible as recorded in the creation. (Gen. 1:26) Here God said "Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness." Clearly there was more than one God involved in the creation.
God the Father and his son Jesus (the God of the Old Testament) in fact, are beings of flesh and bones. Here are a few more Biblical references for thought: Luke 24:36-43, Acts 1:9-11, and Exodus 33:21-30. You have also stated that the Book of Mormon could not possibly be the book of scripture that was discussed in Ezekiel 37:18-22 because you claimed that the book had not been written yet. You are hereby assuming that the Book of Mormon was written by Joseph Smith, Jr. in the early 1800's. Actually, the Book of Mormon was written on a collection of plates by ancient Prophets dating back to 650 B.C. The Book of Mormon was later abridged onto plates of gold by another ancient Prophet named Mormon. Because of his great work and effort, the book was named in his honor. Thus the name; The Book of Mormon. This book of scripture was buried in Hill Cumorah by Mormon's son, Moroni, in the year 421 A.D. and rested there until God sent the angel Moroni again to the earth to restore the Gospel to Joseph Smith, Jr. The prophet Joseph Smith did not write the Book of Mormon, he merely translated it from it's Reformed Egyptian language into modern English by the power and inspiration of God.
Near the end of your discussion on Mormonism, you have stated that the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine of Covenants cannot be inspired of God because you feel that they do not convey a true and coherent message. You cited 1Cor. 14:33 - "God is not a God of confusion. Well, I have some food for thought. What about the bible? Is the Bible complete? Is the Bible coherent and true? I believe that the Bible is the true word of God as far as it is translated correctly. However I know that the Bible is not perfect nor complete as demonstrated in the following examples:
1) Errors in the recording of Paul's vision - Acts 9:7 states that the men traveling with Paul "stood speechless hearing a voice, but seeing no man." Compare that to Acts 22:9 where the men traveling with Paul "...heard not the voice of Him that spoke".
2) Errors in the recording of Judas' death - Matt. 27:5 "And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself." Compare that to Acts 1:18 "Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity and fall-headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out"
Anyone who has truly studied the Bible knows that there are many scriptures missing. Here is a list of these missing scriptures:
Book of the Covenant Exodus 24:7
Book of the Wars of the Lord Numbers 21:14
Book of Jasher Joshua 10:13
Book of the Acts of Solomon 1 Kings 11:41
Books of Nathan and Gad 1 Chronicles 29:29
Prophecy of Ahijah & Visions of Iddo 2 Chronicles 9:29
Book of Shemaiah 2 Chronicles 12:15
Book of Jehu 2 Chronicles 20:34
Acts of Uzziah 2 Chronicles 26:22
Sayings of the Seers 2 Chronicles 33:19
Another epistle of Paul to Corinth 1 Corinthians 5:9
Another epistle to the Ephesians Ephesians 3:3
An epistle of Paul from Loadicea Colossians 4:16
Former epistle of Jude Jude 3
Prophecies of Enoch Jude 14
I share these with you to show you that God has said much to man and not all of it is contained within the Bible. Every word that comes to man from God through his own voice or from His holy prophets is indeed, scripture. The Lord knew that many plain and precious truths would be taken from the Bible. (see 1 Nephi 13: 24-29 in the Book of Mormon.) For this reason, God had the ancient prophets from the Americas record his words as well as the prophets in Jerusalem. The two records, together, complement each other and are both necessary to have the complete and true Gospel of Jesus the Christ. They come together as the "stick of Judah" - the Bible, and the "stick of Ephraim" - The Book of Mormon. (Ezekiel 37:18-22).
I know with assurance that the Book of Mormon is true scripture directly from God. I can testify that Joseph Smith, who was ordained of God to translate the book, was a true prophet of God just like Moses and Abraham of the ancient world. I know that God loves us very much; for we are literally His children. He will never leave us completely alone. He continues to call Prophets in our day to reveal his will to us, His children. I know that Christ (our Lord and Savior) lives. He died for the sins of the world and made it possible for us to return to live with our Father in Heaven (God). I love the Lord with all my heart and I look forward to the warm embrace of His loving arms someday.
God bless you, Shandon Guthrie. I pray that His holy spirit will be with you
as you prayerfully consider the information that I have provided you.
Prayerfully yours,
Chad
You said: If you will study a bit more in depth, you will find that the Moroni, the angel sent by God to the young Joseph Smith, was never named "Nephi".
Response: Please investigate the source I provided. Off hand I can give you three that validate this historical discrepancy (keep in mind that these are Mormon sources): 1) Times and Seasons, vol. 3, page 753 (when I purchase more drive space for my computer I can upload a scanned copy if you would like), 2) the Pearl of Great Price (1851 edition), and 3) the Millennial Star(England: 1842, vol. 3), page 53. The fact that subsequent translations and church publications have "Moroni" instead bespeaks the problem I have with the alleged authenticity of Mormon revelation.
You said: You have stated that Deut.10:17 and 1Cor. 8:5 could not possibly be taken literally when they state that there are many Gods and many Lords. Your reasoning was taken from 1 Cor. 8:6 where it states, "...but to us there is but one God" May I point out the words "but to us" which directly refer to the people here on this Earth in which we live. For us, it is true that we were created and placed here to be governed by our God. However, there is more than one world. There are many worlds, there are many universes, there are many galaxies, there is much, much more out there than we can possibly imagine.
Response: Concerning Deuteronomy 10 and 1 Corinthians 8, my reasoning was rooted in the fact that, contextually, Deut. 10 is emphasizing God's majesty. It is irrelevant that other gods would exist since that is not the point of the passage. Secondly, if "heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God" (v. 14) then it follows that God would retain full jurisdiction over this "highest" heaven. What place, then, for another god? Thirdly, I have deep reservations about the ontological status of multiple gods. 1) It makes no sense to discuss God's omnipotence when it cannot encroach upon antecedent (or subsequent, for that matter) gods. That is, His power is limited to his God. 2) An infinite regress of gods is assumed in the Mormon world view. On this I believe I have already addressed the problem of an actual infinite but I invite you to check out http://members.aol.com/berean7 and my work entitled "Russell, Infinity, and the Tristram Shandy Paradox." There simply cannot be an infinite regression of gods.
Next, the 1 Cor. 8 passage is not limited to this world only. I sympathize with "but to us" as "this world" but how do you explain the universal negative: "there is none other god but one" (v. 4)? It isn't until Paul writes about the special relationship of believers to God (whereby we call Him "Father") where we find "but to us" stipulated.
As far as the supposed plurality of inhabited planets, I find no reference to them in the Bible. In fact, I discussed at length why the Bible insists on one God. Christians merely followed the Jewish precedent of the Hebrew Shema (Deut. 6:4) where monotheism is the standard God's people are to appropriate.
Your gratuitous citations (Col. 1:16 and Hebrews 1) only suggest that whatever exists God created, not that God created worlds apart from ours.
You said: It is plain to see the principle of polytheism from the beginning of the Bible as recorded in the creation. (Gen. 1:26) Here God said "Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness." Clearly there was more than one God involved in the creation.
Response: A plurality within the Godhead is consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity put forth in the Athanasian Creed. I even explained that "within the nature of the one God are the three Persons." Therefore, "our" makes perfect sense in God. But Mormonism cannot solve the isolation of God's creating: "I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself" (Isaiah 44:24). It is abundantly clear that God was the sole creator of heaven and earth, despite the three centers of consciousness (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).
You said: God the Father and his son Jesus (the God of the Old Testament) in fact, are beings of flesh and bones. Here are a few more Biblical references for thought: Luke 24:36-43, Acts 1:9-11, and Exodus 33:21-30.
Response: Christians do not deny Jesus' corporeal body given to Him at the incarnation and sustained in the resurrection. But "God is spirit" (John 4:24). See my lengthy response to Elder Rusty Wells on this topic in "Is God a Corporeal Being: A Response to Rusty Wells" at http://members.aol.com/berean7/docs/repmormon.html.
You said: You are hereby assuming that the Book of Mormon was written by Joseph Smith, Jr. in the early 1800's. Actually, the Book of Mormon was written on a collection of plates by ancient Prophets dating back to 650 .C. The Book of Mormon was later abridged onto plates of gold by another ancient Prophet named Mormon.
Response: This is not true. What I stated was that the Book of Mormon claimed to be penned from 600 B.C. at the earliest (I would even grant 650 B.C.). But Ezekiel was written from July of 593 to April of 571 B.C. Thus only 7 to 57 years would have elapsed, hardly enough time to consider such a record in existence. Besides, what about the other objections I gave: 1) Ezekiel said that he wrote upone the "sticks", not any Mormon prophets. 2) What about the context of "sticks" defined in vv. 21-23 as "nations"?
You said: He merely translated it from it's Reformed Egyptian
Response: God's people would not have used Egyptian of any sort since it was the language of Israel's enemies at the time. Besides, linguistic historians find no "reformed Egyptian" in existence at any time.
You said: Near the end of your discussion on Mormonism, you have stated that the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine of Covenants cannot be inspired of God because you feel that they do not convey a true and coherent message.
Response: My contention was based upon several instances. None of them are responded to in your e-mail. The passages directly contradict one another.
You said: I know that the Bible is not perfect nor complete as demonstrated in the following examples: 1) Errors in the recording of Paul's vision - Acts 9:7 states that the men traveling with Paul "stood speechless hearing a voice, but seeing no man." Compare that to Acts 22:9 where the men traveling with Paul "...heard not the voice of Him that spoke".2) Errors in the recording of Judas' death - Matt. 27:5 "And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself." Compare that to Acts 1:18 "Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity and fall-headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out"
Response: The Acts passages do not discuss audibility, rather they discuss comprehension of the "voice." The Greek passage in Acts 22:9 uses "onk ekonsau" which is literally "to understand not". Secondly, the Judas passages are not mutually exclusive. As long as it is at least feasible that Judas could hang himself and subsequently fall from the tree onto a bed of rocks, then there is no logical incompatibility. Thirdly, my emphasis concerned Mormon inspiration, not biblical inerrancy. Even someone who believes that the Bible has errors can still claim that the Book of Mormon does too.
You said: Anyone who has truly studied the Bible knows that there are many scriptures missing.
Response: Mentioning works in the Bible does not mean that they are a part of the canon of Scripture. After all, Paul quotes pagan sources as well (Epimenides of Crete to be exact - i.e. Acts 17:28), but we do not suggest that pagan books ought to be included in the Bible.
You said: The Lord knew that many plain and precious truths would be taken from the Bible.
Response: This is not the case, either. The Lord taught Himself and through the Apostles that "plain and precious truths" would never be taken out:
1) Matt. 24:35 - "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."
2) Matt. 16:18 - "upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
3) Jude 3 - "fight for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the saints" (literal translation).
4) Matt. 5:18 - "Till heaven and earth pass, not one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law"
But what does this suggest for Mormonism? If the essential writings of the Bible have been compromised through the years then why utilize it as a source?
I pray that the above has been enlightening to you. As a Christian, it is imperative that the message of the everlasting gospel (not a disappearing and reappearing gospel) be conveyed to all mankind. God exists and has revealed Himself decisively in Jesus Christ as the vicarious atonement for our sins. I have given several variations between the Mormon Jesus and the Bible's Jesus. The two are unequivocally different. So I end with this statement from 2 Corinthians 11:4, "For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you [seem] to put up with it easily enough."
The Bible states that we are to "test the spirits to see whether they are of God" (1 John 4:1) and to "test all things; hold fast to the good" (1 Thess. 5:21). If you follow these precepts for discerning doctrine, then you will not be duped by those who prefer a move away from the evidence in favor of an emotional experience which can be imitated even by those who practice Eastern Mysticism.
May God bless your endeavor to seek the Truth (John 14:6).
-Shandon L. Guthrie, B.A., A.A.S.